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AlanMacNeill
Swing Artist

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 342

So what's the development path for a stick?

(put in USA because...well...I'm from there...so advice on Canadian progression doesn't help much)

Hi, my name is Alan, and I am a stick curler. Not completely by choice, as my knees went out long before I gained the 100 lbs that make me a curling heavyweight in all the wrong ways...and even when the 100 lbs come back off...my knees will likely still be too shot to have a good delivery (the orthopedist is hopeful, but not optimistic).

I would love to be a competitive curler. By that I don't mean Olympic Level (I'm 30 years too old to start that path), and heck, after watching Nationals as an official this month, I'm probably a good 15 years too old to even start that path with any hopes of making it...but I'd love to have a competitive goal to chase. Club curling is fun, but even our club's premier league has a plateau beyond which you can't advance.

Bonspiels are very social. Nothing wrong with that, I've had a great time at the Dykes and Kayser and our local Cherry Blossom and etc. But I want to have an outlet to focus more on the quality of my curling than the quality of my socializing.

(I admit, freely, that I suck at both...I'm not saying "Dammit, I could beat the world if only they'd let me", I'm saying "I want a goal to strive for, to give me reason to throw the extra 30 stones of practice, to study the physics of drag effect, etc")

USCA rules say that stick curlers can't participate at any "National Championship". Well, all USCA events are designated as such, even Club Championships...

So...once I age out of the under 5 bracket (next season is my last crack at it...I *will* do better than 1-3...), what's my development path?

Do I even have one? Or should I just be content to be a mediocre Club Curler, who can't even ponder playing at Club Playdowns?

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Old Post 02-27-12 01:11PM
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CaptMorgan
Drawmaster

Registered: Feb 2009
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 837

Re: So what's the development path for a stick?

quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
should I just be content to be a mediocre Club Curler, who can't even ponder playing at Club Playdowns?


Yes. But stick curling is growing.
http://stickcurling.ca/

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Old Post 02-27-12 03:28PM
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AlanMacNeill
Swing Artist

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 342

That's a completely different game. Two players, no sweeping, only one person delivering stones per end...it's overglorified mildly slippery shuffleboard.

I am a *curler*. I can sweep. I enjoy the interplay of having a team of four where individual strengths and weaknesses come into play. I enjoy the challenge as a Skip of modifying shots in travel by getting the sweepers to change their level of effort.

The only difference between me and (insert any other curler's name here) is that my delivery is assisted by a stick.

I want to play the same game as everyone else, not a different game that happens to use some of the same equipment.

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Old Post 02-27-12 03:34PM
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CaptMorgan
Drawmaster

Registered: Feb 2009
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 837

Some bonspiels and league curling where sticks are allowed is about it.

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Old Post 02-27-12 03:39PM
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Willy
Drawmaster

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: New York
Posts: 592

curling 101

quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
That's a completely different game. Two players, no sweeping, only one person delivering stones per end...it's overglorified mildly slippery shuffleboard.

I am a *curler*. I can sweep. I enjoy the interplay of having a team of four where individual strengths and weaknesses come into play. I enjoy the challenge as a Skip of modifying shots in travel by getting the sweepers to change their level of effort.

The only difference between me and (insert any other curler's name here) is that my delivery is assisted by a stick.

I want to play the same game as everyone else, not a different game that happens to use some of the same equipment.


God bless you, but Stick curling is just that, Stick curling. Eventually you will probably have a stick curling championship ( down the road ) But the stick ( and I used it for a year with a torn Quad ) Is not curling. Its stick curling. Fun and a great time, allows you to stay in the game and be involved, but Its stick curling. You don't play Baseball with a Softball or get to hit off the Tee. I applaud your joy of the game, and if your able to sweep effectively then maybe you can manufacture some type of legal delivery. Otherwise start the process of having a USA stick championship. I'll be your first sponsor.

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We'll see you on the Ice! Willy

Last edited by Willy on 02-27-12 at 05:39PM

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Old Post 02-27-12 05:37PM
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chapnlie
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Registered: Jan 2005
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Posts: 267

Some posters on the Club National thread questioned why stick curling was prohibited in that event and, if I recall, no one could provide a good answer. That would seem to me to be an appropriate venue, as it is intended to promote competitive curling, and does not lead to a world event. (It was also intended to develop teams for the national championship which leads to the world, but that is another matter). Appears that some folks might disagree with that, but I would simply challenge them to beat you on the ice, rather than with the rule book.

Stick curling has allowed a number of valuable members to continue to play in our club, and I think they would be surprised to hear that it is "not curling", as suggested by the prevous poster.

I think stick curling should be encouraged by allowing them to participate in the club nationals.

Last edited by chapnlie on 02-28-12 at 02:27PM

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Old Post 02-28-12 11:56AM
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CaptMorgan
Drawmaster

Registered: Feb 2009
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 837

It took a long time before there was a World Senior event.
It will take time before there are enough stick curlers to form a National or International event.
Perhaps if you track down Tonya Harding or Jeff Gillooly to hire someone to start taking out the knees of decent curlers to increase the numbers of curlers using sticks.

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Old Post 02-28-12 12:50PM
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RockDoc
Hitting Paint

Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 165

FWIW, when this came up last (fairly recent proposed modifications of the WCF rules to essentially prohibit the stick curling delivery as we currently know it) the powers-that-be were convinced that the stick gave significant advantage over the normal delivery, especially in throwing hits. So, right or wrong, that's the rationale for prohibiting stick curling in events leading to any kind of national championships. At least as I understand it. Having said that, stick curling has kept many folks involved in the sport that otherwise would have had to quit.

If you want to get away from the stick in order to throw your hat into the national ring, and cannot do a standard flat-foot, no-lift delivery, there are additional options. One is the Utica knee slide, which is may be less stressful on the knees than the standard delivery. As one of the club instructors, I often steer large, tall curlers to this delivery if they don't have sufficient leg strength to "assume the position" of the no-lift delivery easily. Then there is of course knee replacements for those whose knees are really shot. We have quite a few members of our club who have prosthetic knees. One member originally started with a standard delivery, transitioned to a knee-slide when the knees went, and then went back to a standard delivery after having both knees replaced with curling-compatible replacements. He's managed to remain one of the clubs more accomplished curlers through it all.

And of course, there is absolutely no reason you can't curl in almost any typical GNCC or U.S. bonspiel with a stick. What you may find is that there are not many really good stick instructors to help you get better with it. Cape Cod CC is the place to go to find some good stick curlers in the GNCC. That's who my wife sought out when she had to use the stick for a year after tearing a hamstring. Boy those are slow to heal after age 50!

BTW, you can become a "competitive" curler at any age. I started curling at age 48 (my mistake--wish I had done it earlier). At 50+ maybe it's not in the cards to compete with 20-30 year-olds in the national playdowns playing front end, but certainly it is quite reasonable to set the club nationals or seniors (age 50 and up) as a reasonable competitive goal.

Cheers, and Good Curling!

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Old Post 03-30-12 05:25PM
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Hooper
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 348

A bit tangential, but my understanding is that the Utica knee slide isn't allowed in the 'big' competitive events because you start with both feet in the hack. IIRC, the rules are written to allow only one foot in a hack.

I also don't know how much of an advantage the stick is when delivering, but I am fully prepared to believe that it is. We have one guy who had to switch to a stick because of knee issues, and he's now at (or near) the top of players I dread facing in our league. He skips and throws lead rocks, and the games usually follow the pattern of 'watch him throw two perfect guards and try to catch up in the remaining six stones'.

Actually, it makes for very fun games, but he is absolutely deadly with that stick.

None of that really answers the OP. I would imagine that there are a few competitive spiels out there that would allow sticks, especially if they have club members who themselves use sticks. It'd probably take a lot of emailing to find them, and the cash spiels are probably less likely to allow it. (The same would apply for knee sliding.)

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Old Post 03-31-12 11:01AM
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RockDoc
Hitting Paint

Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 165

There is nothing illegal about the Utica knee slide according to USCA or WCF rules. The delivery does not use both hacks. For a righthander, the delivery requires putting the left foot in the left hack. The only relevant rule is that right handers must use the left hack and left handers the right hack. This delivery is a worthy option for those with bad knees or backs, and can be an alternative to the stick for some. A large fraction of our membership at Utica employ this delivery.

Cheers.

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Old Post 03-31-12 12:17PM
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Hooper
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 348

Did Utica change the knee slide, then? We have a guy in our club who learned knee sliding from Utica, and he uses both hacks.

Also, if you place the left foot in the left hack (and assumedly hold the stone in the right hand), does the stone lie between the hacks during delivery? It might not be a big problem in clubs, but in arenas (especially in the south), that becomes a huge problem with hacks that must be removed after play. Temp hacks have metal on top of the ice between the pieces of rubber, which precludes backswing.

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Old Post 03-31-12 12:32PM
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Hooper
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Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 348

Let me correct my geometry on that last post. The stone isn't the issue, just like it isn't an issue with a conventional delivery.

With the left foot in the left hack, the right foot would assumedly go between the hacks. (Vice versa for lefty deliveries.) And that's where the metal of a temporary hack would interfere with delivery since the slider foot would have to be held forward of the hack at all times.

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Old Post 03-31-12 12:44PM
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RockDoc
Hitting Paint

Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 165

If your guy is using both hacks, he is doing the Utica knee slide wrong, AND it's an illegal delivery. The metal or wooden bar between the hacks in some clubs and arenas is an annoyance, but knee sliders can adjust for this.

Cheers.

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Old Post 03-31-12 12:51PM
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Hooper
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Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 348

He learned the double hack style quite a while back, so it very likely got changed since he learned it. He knows that it wouldn't be accepted in most places, but we really don't care as we're just happy he's curling.

So while I'm asking questions: if the material between some hacks is a known issue, do knee sliders learn to deliver as if it exists in all hacks, or do you teach them to use that space between the hacks and then let them deal with the adjustment when they visit other places? (I assume Utica doesn't have temp hacks.)

And thanks for the answers.

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Old Post 03-31-12 12:58PM
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RockDoc
Hitting Paint

Registered: Apr 2005
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Posts: 165

For most knee sliders, the non-hack foot will pass between the hacks during the delivery. Most are not bothered by the little bump as the trail foot passes over the crossbar, for others it is just an annoyance to deal with. I curl with two knee sliders on a men's team and it's just not an issue. We've curled in many clubs with obstructions between the hacks. We have standard removable individual hacks in Utica.

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Old Post 03-31-12 01:46PM
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AlanMacNeill
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Registered: Sep 2011
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Posts: 342

Regretfully, as things stand now, its not the sliding that is the issue, its the getting up off the ice after...my knees are injured from incidents years ago. The extra 100 lbs that came after the mobility was lost isn't helping either, but even if I lose the lbs, docs say its a long and painful series of injections and pt to get enough pseudocartiledge in my knees to get a suffecient degree of mobility.

Supposeldy, we're going to start that process this summer...we shall see...

Az for advantage...that can be dealt with. Personally, I have no issue with the WCA propossed 'release before feet hit near t line's rule.

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Mbgsfv
Knee-Slider

Registered: Feb 2011
Location:
Posts: 4

Club Nationals

At club nationals this year, the topic of stick delivery came up with the head official, Mike Kirkeby. He said that since club nationals didn't lead to worlds, a stick would be allowed.

So, there's that.

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RockDoc
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Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 165

Re: Club Nationals

quote:
Originally posted by Mbgsfv
At club nationals this year, the topic of stick delivery came up with the head official, Mike Kirkeby. He said that since club nationals didn't lead to worlds, a stick would be allowed.

So, there's that.



That's great to know! Thanks.

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lolar3288
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Burlington
Posts: 570

quote:
Originally posted by chapnlie
Some posters on the Club National thread questioned why stick curling was prohibited in that event and, if I recall, no one could provide a good answer. That would seem to me to be an appropriate venue, as it is intended to promote competitive curling, and does not lead to a world event. (It was also intended to develop teams for the national championship which leads to the world, but that is another matter). Appears that some folks might disagree with that, but I would simply challenge them to beat you on the ice, rather than with the rule book.

Stick curling has allowed a number of valuable members to continue to play in our club, and I think they would be surprised to hear that it is "not curling", as suggested by the prevous poster.

I think stick curling should be encouraged by allowing them to participate in the club nationals.



I can give you a few good answers why they are not include.

I curl against stick curlers all the time and I curled against some before they when to the stick "for health reasons"

They couldn't throw a hit sliding to save their lives, now they actually run to the hog and wheel down cannon balls! And very accurate cannon balls.

They also "wander off" the normal side line to get around guards.

I think the rules should change to make stick throwers slide on a slider like everyone else. The idea is you do not have to bend down using a stick so using a slider on one foot only prevent the running and twisting around guards. I know guys that slide with one foot while using a stick and it makes sense as a rule.

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RockDoc
Hitting Paint

Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 165

quote:
Originally posted by lolar3288


They also "wander off" the normal side line to get around guards.




Wheelchair curlers are required to release the stone between certain lines which are just inside the 4-foot lines. A similar rule could be applied to stick curlers to prevent unusual shooting angles. (Although, there is already a rule in place that requires stick curlers to walk straight toward the broom. That's really hard to judge or enforce, however.)

Personally, I have no problem curling with or against stick curlers. (And I find myself curling against stick curlers quite often both in the U.S. and in Canada.) It's not as easy as it looks! Maybe it's easier to throw heavy hits, but it's not so easy to draw.

Cheers.

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Old Post 04-05-12 03:15PM
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AlanMacNeill
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Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 342

quote:
Originally posted by lolar3288

They couldn't throw a hit sliding to save their lives, now they actually run to the hog and wheel down cannon balls! And very accurate cannon balls.

They also "wander off" the normal side line to get around guards.



So don't give them easy hits...yes, you are right, it is easier to generate higher speeds with a stick than a slide, however, it is significantly harder to maintain accuracy with a stick (as you have a lever arm between the body and the stone, any small imperfection in positioning gets magnified), and it is significantly harder to get perfect draw weight (again, the lever arm magnifies imperfections).

The reason most Stick curlers *become* hit machines is because it is far, far, far easier to throw a stick stone hard than soft.

So, your solution as the opposition should be clear...make your opponent draw with their stick curler. It's 2 out of 8 stones.

There are other counterbalancing issues with a stick delivery, it is much harder for the sweepers to accurately judge weight, as they can't time "T to Hog" splits to get a feel for the speed of the shot, nor can they read the release speed until after the shot is released. That's a balancing disadvantage.

Additionally, a stick curler (generally) has mechanical issues that generally make them a less effective sweeper on the front end. Admittedly, that can be managed by having that curler call the line (either as Skip, or by just managing the House), but it's still a factor.

Sticks are very balanceable in our game. Restrict stick curlers to the wheelchair lines and the "wandering" problem goes away. Also note that wandering is against the rules anyhow already, as stick curlers are required to follow a path from the hack to the broom.

There's no reason there that is suffecient to bar a stick curler from the Club Championships. And, I hate to say this, but with the ADA and the Casey Martin decision still standing as law of the land, if a stick curler challenged the USCA in Court, the stick curler would likely win. It behooves the USCA to resolve this peacefully with a formal ruling before it's an issue.

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Old Post 04-09-12 09:49AM
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pdevore
Knee-Slider

Registered: Sep 2011
Location: Duluth
Posts: 6

Re: Club Nationals

quote:
Originally posted by Mbgsfv
At club nationals this year, the topic of stick delivery came up with the head official, Mike Kirkeby. He said that since club nationals didn't lead to worlds, a stick would be allowed.

So, there's that.




I believe that this is no longer the case. That was the rule soon after the stick delivery first made the scene. Rule 10(e) now states that the stick may not be used at any USCA National Championship. We had this discussion at mixed Nationals last year, and most of the officials were surprised to see that the rule had been changed. It seems to have snuck in there somehow.

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PWD

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Old Post 04-11-12 08:27AM
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