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lolar3288
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Burlington
Posts: 564

Should Canadian stick rules be changed?

Should Canadian stick rules be changed?

I know this is one of those “sticky” topics so I want to start by saying I am in favour of the stick and think that it is a great aid in keeping people in curling, but should it become an advantage which it has in many cases? After all, this is curling not shuffle board on ice.

It is my understanding that the stick was introduced to aid players that could not bend down due to physical issues and for that purpose, it is great.

It was not introduced so that people could throw hits 10 times as hard as they could before the stick and harder and more accurate than sliding curlers.

It also was not introduced so that people could throw on lines impossible to achieve sliding.

The first issue can be address easily by making a rule that stick curlers can not run out of the hack and must wear and use a slider on one foot just like sliding curlers (some already do).

The second issue (line) is harder to police. For example it is impossible for a sliding curler from the hack to slide straight up the center line because the hack is to on side of the line and you would have to slide in a slight “s” to do it. Sticks can run the rock right down the centre line from start to finish at the hog. Using a slider with the stick could make the line more consistent with sliding curlers.

The argument that sticks have a hard time with weight doesn’t hold water. I know stick curlers that have excellent weight control and using a slider many even improve weight control.

In short, the stick should be an aid not an advantage. I know a few stick curlers that went to the stick because they curl better, not because they couldn’t slide although I will admit that they are a small number of the people using sticks

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Old Post 04-12-12 09:48AM
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curlerbroad
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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1412

Good points Larry. Actually the slider may even help some stick curlers - a number go wide on heavy takeouts.

My concern is that brand new curlers are automatically being told to use the stick rather than try and slide first. A few heavier curlers at my club use the stick rather than get down in the hack. IMO - they should be forced to slide so they become fitter!

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AlanMacNeill
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Registered: Sep 2011
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Define "run" in terms of out of the hack. Can't do it, can you?

I have seen a "slide" delivery curler throw a takeout every bit as hard as the hardest takeout I can throw with a stick. Just because *you* can't doesn't mean nobody can.

The line issue is already handled quite plainly in the rules, stick curlers are required to walk in a straight line from the hack towards the broom. IF they aren't doing so at your club, call them on it (they may not know it's a rule).

Shoving a slider on a foot doesn't help. Many stick curlers don't have the *balance* to slide on a slider, your rule eliminates them from the game. Not the goal.

You're solving a problem that doesn't need solving. Stick curlers already can't play at National levels or World levels, and at any sort of club level, the quality of play of the curlers is diverse enough that a stick ain't the issue.

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Old Post 04-13-12 01:47PM
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ngm
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Registered: Feb 2011
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My main concern with stick deliveries is that they are somewhat correlated with the age of the player, which will also be somewhat correlated with the age of everyone else on the ice.

There are stick users who lack the common sense to realize that the group of 70+ aged people at the other end of the ice and on the adjacent sheets might have trouble managing the aftermath of the quadruple-peel-weight shot.

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Old Post 04-13-12 02:31PM
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duct_tape
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1438

quote:
Originally posted by ngm
My main concern with stick deliveries is that they are somewhat correlated with the age of the player, which will also be somewhat correlated with the age of everyone else on the ice.

There are stick users who lack the common sense to realize that the group of 70+ aged people at the other end of the ice and on the adjacent sheets might have trouble managing the aftermath of the quadruple-peel-weight shot.





Perhaps, however if you are smart about it, you can make people at the far end aware of what is coming.

If that's the case, people who will be unable to safely stop rocks can get to a safe location up on the backboard before the shot is even thrown.

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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Define "run" in terms of out of the hack. Can't do it, can you?

I have seen a "slide" delivery curler throw a takeout every bit as hard as the hardest takeout I can throw with a stick. Just because *you* can't doesn't mean nobody can.

The line issue is already handled quite plainly in the rules, stick curlers are required to walk in a straight line from the hack towards the broom. IF they aren't doing so at your club, call them on it (they may not know it's a rule).

Shoving a slider on a foot doesn't help. Many stick curlers don't have the *balance* to slide on a slider, your rule eliminates them from the game. Not the goal.

You're solving a problem that doesn't need solving. Stick curlers already can't play at National levels or World levels, and at any sort of club level, the quality of play of the curlers is diverse enough that a stick ain't the issue.



I assume you know quite clearly what running is!

The first question that comes to mind is: do you throw harder and more accurately with the stick than you did sliding?

Calling the line issue is very difficult like that little step to the center that allows stick curlers to run the rock right down the centre line.

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Old Post 04-14-12 02:05PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Define "run" in terms of out of the hack. Can't do it, can you?

I have seen a "slide" delivery curler throw a takeout every bit as hard as the hardest takeout I can throw with a stick. Just because *you* can't doesn't mean nobody can.

Shoving a slider on a foot doesn't help. Many stick curlers don't have the *balance* to slide on a slider, your rule eliminates them from the game. Not the goal.




Interesting, you can run on ice but you don't have the balance to use a slider?

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Old Post 04-14-12 02:08PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


Calling the line issue is very difficult like that little step to the center that allows stick curlers to run the rock right down the centre line.



Maybe we should go to a single centre hack? It's been talked about for years. Makes sense in a number of ways.

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Old Post 04-15-12 09:34AM
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duct_tape
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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1438

quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


Maybe we should go to a single centre hack? It's been talked about for years. Makes sense in a number of ways.




Also makes no sense to change the hacks and make everyone alter their deliveries for a negligible benefit.

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Old Post 04-15-12 07:32PM
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if you cant catch rocks anymore you shouldnt play. Bridge is a safe game.

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Old Post 04-16-12 08:58AM
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AlanMacNeill
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Registered: Sep 2011
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


Interesting, you can run on ice but you don't have the balance to use a slider?



Have you ever stepped onto a curling rink, "Unregistered"?

With grippers on your shoe, and two legs to provide balance, walking on curling ice isn't all that much more challenging than walking on a sidewalk.

Sliding, however, is a single leg activity, so the balance is significantly more challenging, *PARTICULARLY* the more vertical you get. It requires fine motor control in the legs, which not everyone has.

*I* can do it, but that's because my medical problem is strictly a lack of strength in the joint once it's bent past 45 degrees (such as kneeling or getting into a sliding delivery), due to degenerative cartilage.

Not everyone has the same medical condition I do.

I also point out that, in the real world, "running" isn't the best way to generate force with a stick anyhow...so the folks you see doing that aren't being as good and effective as they could be.

Once again, you're fixing a problem that doesn't need fixing.

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Old Post 04-16-12 09:48AM
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quote:
Originally posted by duct_tape



Also makes no sense to change the hacks and make everyone alter their deliveries for a negligible benefit.



Actually, it makes no change in delivery, your sliding to the broom.

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Old Post 04-16-12 01:44PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
if you cant catch rocks anymore you shouldnt play. Bridge is a safe game.


Catching rocks is not the issue, simply put, if you throw harder and more accurate with the stick than you could without it you are just plain cheating.

If you walk straight down the centre line, at best, your taking advantage of the situation.

Most of the stick curlers I've curled against (in spiels) do both better than they ever could before using the stick. I even know guys that switch back and forth between using and not using it.

There is no argument with people using the stick to stay in the game. That is a great thing. It's the miss using of it that ticks people off and I suspect the ones that do it are well aware.

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Old Post 04-16-12 01:52PM
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lolar3288
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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Burlington
Posts: 564

I never really started this post to limit the people who use the stick properly. It's a great to keep them in the sport. But I'm sure we all know the ones that use it as an advantage and that's what needs to be controlled. Just keep the playing field level.

Rules are generally in a sport to prevent unfair advantages.

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Old Post 04-16-12 01:56PM
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duct_tape
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


Actually, it makes no change in delivery, your sliding to the broom.




Sure it does, it changes the angle you have to slide at the broom. This will have a major impact on how your rock runs down the ice, even if you are right up the stick every time.

Furthermore, anyone with a lift delivery or non-lift delivery in which they pull the stone back between the hacks will now be off-center.

Basically, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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Old Post 04-17-12 03:24PM
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AlanMacNeill
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Registered: Sep 2011
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quote:

Rules are generally in a sport to prevent unfair advantages.


Okay...so...the contention is that sticks are overpowered...

For the purposes of argument, let's assume you're right. How can we revise the rules to "nerf" (to borrow a video gaming term) sticks, while still allowing those folks who need them to have a competitive outlet beyond Drinkfests...err...I mean Social Bonspiels.

I can think of several things offhand, any of which would be better than the current "You can't play at this level" we have.

1. require stick curlers to keep their feet between the 4 foot lines (the wheelchair lines) during delivery. Eliminates the "wandering" issue, makes shots where the path is significantly off the center line much harder.

2. Put a "foot fault" line on the ice where stick curlers must release by. The T-line is probably too far back, perhaps the top of the house? Accomplishes two things...1. Makes it harder to "run" on delivery, since you have less distance to accelerate. 2. Makes stick shorts longer, therefore requires higher accuracy

3. Restrict stick curlers from throwing Skip Stones. Presumably, these are usually the highest degree of difficulty shots. (Note, you should still allow Stick curlers to *be* the Skip, just force them to throw 3 or earlier). This isn't a perfect fix, as sometimes it's the Vice shot that's critical, or even the 2nd.

4. Suck it up, buttercup. Realize that, in reality, it's not an advantage that you as the opponent shouldn't be able to cope with. If *you* curl 100%, your opponent still isn't going to win even with sticks. If you can't beat them on the ice, get better. If a stick curler is better at takeouts...don't give them takeouts! It's called strategy. Curling is 95% mental, only 5% physical.

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Old Post 04-17-12 04:03PM
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quote:
Originally posted by duct_tape



Sure it does, it changes the angle you have to slide at the broom. This will have a major impact on how your rock runs down the ice, even if you are right up the stick every time.

Furthermore, anyone with a lift delivery or non-lift delivery in which they pull the stone back between the hacks will now be off-center.

Basically, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.



The angle is different, but no different than the angle difference between lift and no-lift delivery now. The skip would pick up on this quickly. It has been discussed more in the context of left vs right hand delivery.

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Old Post 04-18-12 04:28PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill


Okay...so...the contention is that sticks are overpowered...

For the purposes of argument, let's assume you're right. How can we revise the rules to "nerf" (to borrow a video gaming term) sticks, while still allowing those folks who need them to have a competitive outlet beyond Drinkfests...err...I mean Social Bonspiels.

I can think of several things offhand, any of which would be better than the current "You can't play at this level" we have.

1. require stick curlers to keep their feet between the 4 foot lines (the wheelchair lines) during delivery. Eliminates the "wandering" issue, makes shots where the path is significantly off the center line much harder.

2. Put a "foot fault" line on the ice where stick curlers must release by. The T-line is probably too far back, perhaps the top of the house? Accomplishes two things...1. Makes it harder to "run" on delivery, since you have less distance to accelerate. 2. Makes stick shorts longer, therefore requires higher accuracy

3. Restrict stick curlers from throwing Skip Stones. Presumably, these are usually the highest degree of difficulty shots. (Note, you should still allow Stick curlers to *be* the Skip, just force them to throw 3 or earlier). This isn't a perfect fix, as sometimes it's the Vice shot that's critical, or even the 2nd.

4. Suck it up, buttercup. Realize that, in reality, it's not an advantage that you as the opponent shouldn't be able to cope with. If *you* curl 100%, your opponent still isn't going to win even with sticks. If you can't beat them on the ice, get better. If a stick curler is better at takeouts...don't give them takeouts! It's called strategy. Curling is 95% mental, only 5% physical.



If curling was 95% mental....you wouldn't need a stick because it only accounted for 5% of the game!

Just quoting your number!!!!

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Old Post 04-20-12 10:49AM
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lolar3288
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Burlington
Posts: 564

quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


If curling was 95% mental....you wouldn't need a stick because it only accounted for 5% of the game!

Just quoting your number!!!!



Like the way government calculates income taX.

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Old Post 04-20-12 10:51AM
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Lightbulb

The rule should be changed (back) to where stick throwers have to release the rock by the T-line. Say this because according to the rules before stick curling, they would be burning the rock once it passed over the T-line...

Or the other option is they must stand still up where the wheelchair curlers throw.

Or maybe only allowed one or two steps like the traveling rule in Basketball.

Should it be a stick tournament or league, then they could do it the way the do now.

Jon

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Old Post 04-20-12 01:10PM
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livelysue
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Apr 2012
Location: PEI
Posts: 21

I just started throwing with the stick this year due to issues with my back. I am a 40+ person who had to be convinced to use the stick this year as I really did not want to. I would rather be in the hack throwing normally then using the stick. Did my performance improve? I can throw better takeout weight but my draw weight with the stick is not as good as it was when I was throwing normally. I ask everyone to try and throw with the stick and see that it is not as easy as you think.

I played in a stick curling league this year and I really had a lot of fun. An actual game of stick curling is very different then regular curling. The games are 6 ends with sweeping only from the hog line in and only 6 rocks are thrown. Two players per team with one at each end of the ice. You cannot take out any rock until after the third rock has been played even if the rock is in the house.

In terms of playing in fun spiels with regular curlers, I always threw lead with the stick and then held the broom. I can sweep but my back does not always hold up for a whole 6 or 8 end game and the guys I play with are better sweepers.

I can understand how people observing can see that stick curlers have an advantage especially with takeouts. There is a disadvantage to the stick. You are walking upright towards the target instead of being down low. I prefer to be at ice level with the rock instead of upright as it is a better for me to judge if I am on target or not.

I do agree with the person that said that new curlers should try to throw normally without the stick first if they are phsyically able to.

I recommend that everyone who is throwing normally try the stick and then evaluate the differences. Things that we see as easy are not always that way when we try them ourselves.

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Old Post 04-22-12 09:00AM
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duct_tape
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1438

quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


The angle is different, but no different than the angle difference between lift and no-lift delivery now. The skip would pick up on this quickly. It has been discussed more in the context of left vs right hand delivery.





So why bother changing it?

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Old Post 04-23-12 11:35AM
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The rule just has to be changed enough to discourage people from using it because they don't want to throw from the hack with their hand. Some guys and gals could just be lazy and if they're lazy they should either not play or their team should be brought down by the fact that player doesn't have the skill to throw the rock out their hand.

I have no doubt it's hard to use the stick but no one should be compensated for laziness, you should lose because of this.

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Old Post 04-23-12 09:18PM
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