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milobloom
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Registered: Mar 2005
Location: St. Albert
Posts: 590

New CWM Article: CSI: Womens World Curling 3-4 Game

http://curlwithmath.blogspot.com/20...ld-curling.html

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Old Post 03-26-12 10:33PM
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nelski
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: The Valley
Posts: 1245

Great recap and analysis. TY.

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Old Post 03-26-12 10:57PM
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Tap Back
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1043

That is a great analysis and just as I saw the game. It seemed to me that everyone forgot how well Korea played and kept the opportunities for Nedohin to a minimum.....even Heather forgot as well I think.

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Old Post 03-27-12 12:38AM
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Nine Ender
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2009
Location:
Posts: 211

quote:
Originally posted by Tap Back
That is a great analysis and just as I saw the game. It seemed to me that everyone forgot how well Korea played and kept the opportunities for Nedohin to a minimum.....even Heather forgot as well I think.


Its not great analysis.

Ten ends, four rock rule, good ice. Plenty of options.

Here are some quick examples :

4th end : Why are you hitting on ANY shot here ?
Author notes "nice double from Jessica"
and "Beth rolls out of the rings" Both running
weight shots. You have the hammer, use it.

It would be obvious by the 4th what Korea's strategy was.
So why is ANY shot more then backline weight ? What was
that corner for anyways ?

5th end : Same deal. Why are you hitting ? Guess you want
another blank. Author says "I don't mind this at
all". Uh, its the 5th end ... .

8th end : The mistake is obvious.

Several ends without : Double center ? Even 6th end if
you want to force the action.

I could get into more detail but you get the point. The rock to the wings is a sucker play to lull someone into a defensive game. Its a strategy that came out when 3 rock first started. Two well placed centers and Korea has a decision to make. Nobody on that team double peels very well.

Some of these teams should play in a skins league it helps open your eyes up to alternatives in an offensive mind set. You don't need to be hitting rocks on the outside if you own center guards. How many offensive minded draws did Canada play the whole game ?

Think of all the strong hitting teams in mens and nobody is able to force these kind of dull affairs with any regularity.

Last edited by Nine Ender on 03-27-12 at 03:19AM

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Old Post 03-27-12 02:37AM
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milobloom
Administrator

Registered: Mar 2005
Location: St. Albert
Posts: 590

quote:
Originally posted by Nine Ender


Its not great analysis.

Ten ends, four rock rule, good ice. Plenty of options.

Here are some quick examples :

4th end : Why are you hitting on ANY shot here ?
Author notes "nice double from Jessica"
and "Beth rolls out of the rings" Both running
weight shots. You have the hammer, use it.

It would be obvious by the 4th what Korea's strategy was.
So why is ANY shot more then backline weight ? What was
that corner for anyways ?

5th end : Same deal. Why are you hitting ? Guess you want
another blank. Author says "I don't mind this at
all". Uh, its the 5th end ... .

8th end : The mistake is obvious.

Several ends without : Double center ? Even 6th end if
you want to force the action.

I could get into more detail but you get the point. The rock to the wings is a sucker play to lull someone into a defensive game. Its a strategy that came out when 3 rock first started. Two well placed centers and Korea has a decision to make. Nobody on that team double peels very well.

Some of these teams should play in a skins league it helps open your eyes up to alternatives in an offensive mind set. You don't need to be hitting rocks on the outside if you own center guards. How many offensive minded draws did Canada play the whole game ?

Think of all the strong hitting teams in mens and nobody is able to force these kind of dull affairs with any regularity.



Valid points and you can make a case to support much of what you're saying (except the double in the 4th, no arguement with that call and what is so obvious in the 8th?), but how does that change the outcome? DOes it guarantee victory?

Perhaps you missed what I was trying to examine: was strategy the difference in the game or a minor factor?. With better shotmaking and early, Canada could have forced the game to become more aggressive. They attempted come arounds rather than hit the open stone in the 2nd and 3rd ends, but failed to execute in the 2nd. In the 5th, they're now into the MIddle Game and I don't fault them for hitting when up 1 without hammer. I suspect most teams would do the same in that position. Again, if they simply don't roll out, they can likely avoid a blank in that end.

Please note: I don't generally criticize the weight a team plays on open hits. If they throw "running weight" and it's their best chance to make the shot (because it's what they practice and are prepared for), then that's their business, but in several cases they didn't make the shots, so I call that execution, not strategy.

The other question to be asked, should Canada become hyper-aggressive even if it's not their strength? If I'm a fastball pitcher and I'm facing an average hitter who's better at hitting fastballs, I don't throw curve-balls when it's a 3-2 count. I go to my strength and throw a fastball.

I recall seeing the US Mens play a similar, very close game against Canada several years ago in the world's and they either won it or nearly did (don't even recall who Team Canada was, Howard perhaps). You could make the same argument against Mens Team Canada in that game, that they needed to be "more aggressive". Maybe the US played well?

I also wonder what comments would have been if the same game had been played with two Canadian Womens teams (or Mens for that matter), rather than an International team. This false belief that Canada is far superior needs to disappear, it's simply not the case. Womens continues to have more parity and the Mens is only a few years behind.

Canada fans better start to realize they have become "a favorite" and not the "overwhelming favorite" in Womens curling. It's not likely to change and why should it? Our dominant position in Mens is likely nearing its last generation of players and it's very likely the next generation will be meeting teams who have closed the gap while they don't have the same level of experience (as Martin, Ferbey, Stoughton and Howard).

I don't agree it was a dull game, but everyone's entitled to their opinion, that's entirely subjective.

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Old Post 03-27-12 09:31AM
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nelski
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: The Valley
Posts: 1245

Agree. Objectivity is hard to garner when Canadians are used to the coziness of feeling superior. Those days are done. Strategy or execution? It's a free-flowing relationship. If the execution falters, the strategy (and sometimes the game plan) becomes moot. Great discussion on both parts. Thanks again.

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Old Post 03-27-12 12:33PM
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Nine Ender
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2009
Location:
Posts: 211

The top men's teams in Canada separated themselves from the field by playing an aggressive game. They set an example and other teams soon realized they needed to try it to keep up.

Very few top women's teams in Canada seem entirely comfortable with this. Even J. Jones, who favours this kind of game, has occasionally gotten defensive ( although I believe C. Overton was a factor in those decisions ). In fact, the loss to Korea was very similar to one of Jennifer's losses at the World event one year.

The World record of our men's teams vs women's teams the last 10 years is night and day different. The results speak for themselves. There are many Men's international teams that execute as good or better then the Korean women ( even factoring in the gender gap ).

I disagree strongly that execution by Korea had anything to do with the style of game. Korea's shot making in ALL playoff games was inconsistant. In fact, their skip under pressure was hooking almost all her outturn hits. Their third in the 3-4 game was noticeably nervous in the early ends. It was not a calm team under playoff pressure.

Look, I don't blame any team for going with what they are comfortable with, but I have a feeling Nedohin herself knows she made huge strategic errors in that game. My analysis is not to criticize the Nedohin team ( there are many Canadian women's teams that would have done the same thing ), its to point out a choice was made.

If you want to keep the game close and roll the dice at the end,
this is the way to play.

Last edited by Nine Ender on 03-27-12 at 02:01PM

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Old Post 03-27-12 01:37PM
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Nine Ender
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2009
Location:
Posts: 211

quote:
Originally posted by nelski
Agree. Objectivity is hard to garner when Canadians are used to the coziness of feeling superior. Those days are done. Strategy or execution? It's a free-flowing relationship. If the execution falters, the strategy (and sometimes the game plan) becomes moot. Great discussion on both parts. Thanks again.


I don't distinguish, I've had running arguments with Legend during past Scotties as to why J. Jones wins or loses certain RR games. Jones often lost to weaker opponents when she reverts to defensive play. Playing "not to lose" rarely works out as expected.

Sure, execution is part of the equation. But if I have Jessica
M.'s inconsistancy to deal with this week, there is no way she's playing full hit weight when I finally got the hammer in the 4th end.

I'd say Korea had at least two great opportunities to win the game ( 7th end and 10th end ).

Look, we all make mistakes. I've come out of some games and wondered why on earth I didn't have the killer instinct and confidance to take a game early. And if I were Nedohin watching Switzerland beat Korea, I'd have known clearly the strategy was wrong.

I believe Canada was good enough to win the event, but the aftermath of that Italy game was they stopped believing. Maybe they'll be a stronger team from this experience, painful losses are great teachers.

Last edited by Nine Ender on 03-27-12 at 03:48PM

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Old Post 03-27-12 02:00PM
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sternwheeler
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2012
Location: Canoe Cove, PEI
Posts: 300

Thumbs up "painful looses are great teachers"

in theory this makes sense to many, would not losing to the Italians have changed much? I doubt it we all know curling is a "mental thing", as well as executing that crucial shot successfully in any situation... hell if we didn't lose any games how would our minds remain focused and sharp.... winning is sweet payoff for those loses you faced and endured with some degree of 'humility"...As that "Eagles" song goes.... GET OVER IT ...

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Old Post 03-27-12 03:24PM
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