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Old Post 02-23-17 09:38PM
sillingworth is offline Click Here to See the Profile for sillingworth Click here to Send sillingworth a Private Message Visit sillingworth's homepage! Find more posts by sillingworth Add sillingworth to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
sillingworth
Knee-Slider

 

Registered: Feb 2017
Location: Orlando Area
Posts: 3

Angry Heavy (Slow) Ice

Hello,

I just joined a new curling club, where we curling on arena ice and it's really slow. It's practically impossible to do a takeout shot unless you push the stone, which is not how I learnt to curl at the Burlington Curling Club.

Any suggestions on how we can improve our arena ice would be appreciated.

For example, what is the best way to pebble to increase the speed?
Pebble size, water temperature, number of passes?

Currently we're doing two passes with different size pebble heads (I need to find out whether they have fine, small, medium, etc holes). One tank has lukewarm water, the other has hot water.

Any suggestions on anything we can try to improve the speed would be appreciated.

Thanks

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Old Post 02-23-17 10:04PM
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curlky
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 501

When I read arena curling adn slow ice, there are 2 usual culprits. FIrst is frost. Many hockey arena have dehumidifiers that are not up to curling standards. So ask yourself are your brooms getting frosty when sweeping? And after they zamboni the ice for you, are you doing a sufficient job at sweeping off any remaining frost residue with push brooms? Second, what temp are your stones? WHen you are not curling, how are you storing yoru stones? Are they being kept at the same temp at the ice temperature, not colder and not hotter?

I know you think pebble, and perhaps that is the long term answer, but you have to rule out the big fish first in an arena world.

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Old Post 02-23-17 10:47PM
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Grat
Hitting Paint

 

Registered: Mar 2014
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Posts: 100

There can also be a big difference in speed if you get a dry cut from the zamboni instead of just a zamboni flood. Ideally you get a wet cut, allow it to freeze, followed by a dry cut, then mopped and pebbled.

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Old Post 02-23-17 11:00PM
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sillingworth
Knee-Slider

 

Registered: Feb 2017
Location: Orlando Area
Posts: 3

Thanks for the reply. Very helpful.

Yes, my broom does get frosty..

We aren't sweeping the ice after the Zamboni currently. We sweep with a wide broom after we pebble/nip. I will sweep after the zamboni too. Do we use the typical broom used for cleaning curling ice?

We are currently storing the stones just outside the rink currently. They are cool, but not ice temperature. We are in the process of getting a freezer to store the stones.

When we're setting up the ice for curling, the first thing we do is put the stones on the ice on top of aluminum pie plates to cool while we setup the ice. They are typically cooling for about 30 minutes before we start curling. Hmm, I wonder if the plates act as reflectors, slowing the cooling process.

Any other suggestions you could provide would be helpful.

Thanks

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Old Post 02-23-17 11:46PM
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curlky
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Registered: Oct 2013
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I dont think that you want a flood from the zamboni unless you get a dry cut following. If you only have time for 1 cut, then what you want is to have the zamboni just do what I think is called a wash cut, which uses less water than a flood, but cuts. it will leave some grooves in ice, but is a good compromise with time.

As far as the broom, depends on what the ice is like once the zamboni leaves. I will get to that, but you must broom before the pebble, otherwise you are freezing the zamboni debris under the pebble and cant sweep it away. As for the broom, we use a two pass system. FIrst person goes through with a nylon bristle push broom, like you would use to sweep your driveway. We actually bought 3 36" ones and bolted them together to make a mega 96 inch wide push broom. Basically push the debris all teh way to the board, and then bang the broom on the boards to knock off debris. Behind that person someone comes behind with a 6 foot wide dust mop, like the one that a commercial building or school would use to clean/dust the floor. Again go all teh way to boards adn use the board bang technique. You can use the sheep skin hair style dust broom like a curling club would use, but honestly, arena ice is so bad it is overkill, and it will just chew up and dirty up that level of broom.

As for the stones and pie plates, they are aluminum and thin, and will not really hinder or help the rock chilling. I will say that 30 minutes is not a huge amount of time, buts you use what you can. Many clubs will actually just use a very thing plastic sheet between the ice adn rocks. It will insulate more than aluminum, but you can sit 12 or so rocks on one sheet which will be faster than individual pie plates I assume. Key is to keep rocks dry as you are aware.


How many ends do you play before the rocks stop melting in?

As for other tips, store rocks as close to hockey boards as you can, as they will be coldest. Some arenas will be nice, and allow you to load the rock onto the ice while the zamboni is on the ice. How? They make 1 pass along the boards close to where you bring rocks onto the ice. After that they dont go over that section again, and you put rocks in that area. It will earn you an extra 10 minutes of chill time, but maybe not enough to make a difference.

It is my beliefe that ina limited amount of time, the nip/sweep after pebble is less important than pre-pebble prep if you are in a time crunch. Of course nip/sweep helps, but it all about how much you can do in 30 minutes, you will never be perfect.

I will think about this more and get back to you more.

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Old Post 02-27-17 10:38PM
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sillingworth
Knee-Slider

 

Registered: Feb 2017
Location: Orlando Area
Posts: 3

Smile

We curled last Saturday. The changes recommended were very helpful. The ice was much faster!

As recommended, we swept before pebbling.

In addition, we changed how we peddled our ice. Previously we were using our pebble head with large holes first and hot water. Then small with lukewarm. When I was watching the Scotties up in St. Catharines last week, they said they were having frost issues. To reduce the issue they pebbled first with their small hole pebble head and lukewarm water. Then with their larger hole pebble head and hot water. Also I watched a few Hans Wuthrich (icemaker) videos on YouTube on how to pebble.

After pebbling we nipped and swept.

Huge improvement!

Regarding the stones, it took just over an hour before the stones stopped melting the ice. Now I'm looking into freezers for the stones.

Next time we curl I'll will ask if the Zamboni can try a different cut. We'll try both recommended cuts. Wash and dry.

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Old Post 02-27-17 10:52PM
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Grat
Hitting Paint

 

Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 100

How much time do you have after the previous session before the clock starts on your curling time? That helps decide which steps you keep in the prep process and which you skip.

Just realized you were in Florida, which means your rink is probably warmer than up north, and rock freezers will be a big help. Also means humidity may be an issue and you might need to use a different pebble head size and water temperature than you would in a drier environment.

Last edited by Grat on 02-27-17 at 10:58PM

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Old Post 02-27-17 10:55PM
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guido
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Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 853

Pebble with distilled or reverse osmosis water if you have access to some.

Last edited by guido on 02-27-17 at 10:58PM

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Old Post 02-27-17 11:00PM
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Grat
Hitting Paint

 

Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 100

Distilled water is available pretty cheap at Walmart. The other thing to consider is Magic Ice - lots of different opinions on it, but it's worth experimenting with.

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Old Post 02-28-17 10:10AM
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curlky
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 501

At this point, I would not worry too much about the clarity of the water, or ice additives, or even pebble size/technique. Not to say that they are not important, but you have a bigger issue. If the rocks are burning into the ice, they will not slide well on any ice surface. Once you get the rocks chilled, then worry about water and pebble. The 4 primary factors that will effect arena curling are cold rocks (same temp as ice surface, not colder, not hotter), ice flatness (there are some other threads here where I went into some advanced cut patterns if you have time), what type of cut (flood, wash, dry) the Zamboni does, and getting all of the debris off of the ice before you pebble. You might add that for the first end or 2 of the game, everyone should be sure to wipe the running surface of their rocks before they throw. Once that is all addressed, you can then go into pebble patterns, pebble size, water quality, temp, etc. But before major thigns are addressed, you will probably only see negligible changes in overall quality with addressing the minor issues now.

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Old Post 03-01-17 07:10PM
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guido
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 853

quote:
Originally posted by curlky
At this point, I would not worry too much about the clarity of the water, or ice additives, or even pebble size/technique. Not to say that they are not important, but you have a bigger issue. If the rocks are burning into the ice, they will not slide well on any ice surface. Once you get the rocks chilled, then worry about water and pebble. The 4 primary factors that will effect arena curling are cold rocks (same temp as ice surface, not colder, not hotter), ice flatness (there are some other threads here where I went into some advanced cut patterns if you have time), what type of cut (flood, wash, dry) the Zamboni does, and getting all of the debris off of the ice before you pebble. You might add that for the first end or 2 of the game, everyone should be sure to wipe the running surface of their rocks before they throw. Once that is all addressed, you can then go into pebble patterns, pebble size, water quality, temp, etc. But before major thigns are addressed, you will probably only see negligible changes in overall quality with addressing the minor issues now.


Agree 95% with you.
If you do all this and still pebble with impure or dirty water you will still have problems.

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