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duct_tape
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1438

quote:
Originally posted by lolar3288


Let's see $125,000 a year divided by 4 players and a coach is $25,000 a person...per year. Considering entry fees and travel expenses it is peanuts...and this is the best team in Canada at the moment....

Now consider a hockey player in the NHL with a salary and all expenses paid...or even the American League. No current American league player has a chance of representing Canada in the next Olympics..

Heck..$125,000 a year, less all expenses, wouldn't even get me out of retirement!





Your argument is completely senseless, as you're comparing apples and oranges.

The CCA and Curling Teams like Glenn Howard's are funded by the government through programs like Own the Podium and Sport Canada.

An NHL or AHL player is paid a salary by a private organization (namely their hockey club). Government funding doesn't enter into the picture as far as player and team development goes.

A private enterprise for all I care can pay their players whatever they want to. If they have enough revenue to justify paying a backup goalie two million dollars a year, fair enough.

The government can not and should not do that. They should be there to provide assistance and funding in training atheletes, but should not make them "employees of the state" per se.

But comparing government funded amateur sport to a professional sports league is useless. It's two totally separate categories, and will never be close in financial matters.

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Old Post 03-15-12 09:46PM
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lolar3288
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Burlington
Posts: 577

quote:
Originally posted by Gerry



The CCA promotes the Business of Curling program, which gives clubs the tools to promote and market themselves. The CCA has done the start curling commercials, the website (which I have been told by several trying to access it is poor though) to give clubs the opportunities to benefit from this.

The CCA is not in the business of babysitting and funding inefficient clubs. They give clubs the tools to help themselves, but there are a lot out there who refuse to change with the times. It's business, and if clubs can't do what they need to, then they'll die a slow death and change will only happen when they realize they're in trouble.

I hear stories all the time across the country about clubs being very successful, and others struggling to keep the doors open. Usually, the bottom line comes down to management doing what it takes the make the facility work.



This type of thinking is why curling is in trouble. If as you say "the cca is not in the business of babysitting and funding inefficient clubs" then why on earth are clubs funding the CCA?

The money flows up...not down.

CCA gives nothing...it sells it's programs...and here is good business advice, if you are paying for a service that is not helping your business (like clubs paying CCA fees) then good business sense will tell you to stop paying it!). By the way, if the clubs die out...exactly what will the purpose of the CCA be?

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Old Post 03-16-12 09:26AM
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Manitoba Legend
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Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Hovel of Fame
Posts: 7747

quote:
Originally posted by lolar3288


This type of thinking is why curling is in trouble. If as you say "the cca is not in the business of babysitting and funding inefficient clubs" then why on earth are clubs funding the CCA?

The money flows up...not down.

CCA gives nothing...it sells it's programs...and here is good business advice, if you are paying for a service that is not helping your business (like clubs paying CCA fees) then good business sense will tell you to stop paying it!). By the way, if the clubs die out...exactly what will the purpose of the CCA be?



Larry - please stop making so much sense. The CCA has become the master franchisor of curling in Canada. They've done this on the backs of local governments, and the curling clubs. And they've done it without much opposition (those opposed fear being ostracized so most of them bite their tongues). This is curling administration by default. The best example of this is illustrated in the career of Warren Hansen, who's been around longer than water went around the rock.

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Old Post 03-16-12 09:38AM
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lolar3288
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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Burlington
Posts: 577

quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
Lolar, you seem to be good with numbers.

Now consider that 15,000+ people pay big money to watch said hockey player 82 times a year. They also buy merchandise, beer, hotdogs and crazy overpriced popcorn while at these games. But you're right, it's hard to figure out the discrepancy between what a curler is funded and a hockey player is paid...

When somebody compares curling to a professional team sport like hockey they make a terrible comparison. Curling is more like the PGA.

In Winnipeg, the boomer retirement is what's hurting clubs. It's not an opportunity at all. These boomers filled clubs and curled like crazy in the late 60's, 70's, 80's and early 90's. Now they're retiring, going south for the winter, quitting men's curling to curl daytime seniors (for less than half the price of men's curling), realizing curling's not as much fun now that they can't get drunk and drive home afterwards, or dead.

And who neglected junior curling during the late 60's, 70's, 80's and early 90's because the clubs were bursting at the seems? The F'N boomers!



How many attend an American league game?

Anyway, that wasn't the point....The costs for the person to train and compete are the same.

You looked to the biggest markets to sell your produce. In this area the Boomers are the new mass market. About 1/3 of our club is seniors and we can't take many more due to ice availability. We even have a snowbird package.

AS to what they pay...that is the fault of clubs not setting realistic dues. I get in this discussion all the time and I did the stats at our club. Do you know that the average curler that curls twice a week pays less than $10 a game over a season. That's less than $5 an hour....you can even park a car around here for that. One point I do agree on is that clubs need to have realistic fees and many do not.

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Old Post 03-16-12 09:39AM
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lolar3288
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Burlington
Posts: 577

quote:
Originally posted by duct_tape



The CCA and Curling Teams like Glenn Howard's are funded by the government through programs like Own the Podium and Sport Canada.

"The government can not and should not do that. They should be there to provide assistance and funding in training atheletes, but should not make them "employees of the state" per se."

But comparing government funded amateur sport to a professional sports league is useless. It's two totally separate categories, and will never be close in financial matters.



I'm a little confused here...first you start that the government does fund CCA....etc....but not make employees....well indirectly it's the same thing is it not?.....Give me a cheque a week or one big one at the end of the year?

The fact is Sports Canada funds amateur (I love that term) Sport to the tune of over 100 million dollars a year. I would agree that it funds the wrong things. If it's going to fund amateur sport shouldn't the first step be to fund the players, then the organizations which should have to justify the funding?

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Old Post 03-16-12 09:49AM
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Guest
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Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by lolar3288
This type of thinking is why curling is in trouble. If as you say "the cca is not in the business of babysitting and funding inefficient clubs" then why on earth are clubs funding the CCA?

So their club members can participate in national (or provincial) championships. There is no other reason, that I can think of, for a club to join their provincial curling association or the CCA.

And I suppose if your club wanted to host a competition it should be a member too.

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lolar3288
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Burlington
Posts: 577

quote:
Originally posted by Guest

What were the political issues with the "badged" coaches?




Something like this..."I'm certified so I should be in charge of the program....not someone with twice the knowledge and experience..they are not certified.........blah...blah

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Old Post 03-16-12 10:25AM
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lolar3288
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Burlington
Posts: 577

quote:
Originally posted by Guest

So their club members can participate in national (or provincial) championships. There is no other reason, that I can think of, for a club to join their provincial curling association or the CCA.




OK...agreed....and what percentage of the membership in the club would that represent? Remember, the cost for a 4 sheet club to join both organizations is around $5500.00

Personally I'd like to see OCA and CCA membership separate on the membership form so that only those who would use it would join as individuals.

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Old Post 03-16-12 10:31AM
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Guest
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by lolar3288
Something like this..."I'm certified so I should be in charge of the program....not someone with twice the knowledge and experience..they are not certified.........blah...blah

Competitive curling knowledge and experience does not necessarily mean you can administer and manager a junior curling program successfully. Management and doing are two different animals.

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Old Post 03-16-12 10:34AM
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Guest
Super Rockchucker

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quote:
Originally posted by lolar3288
OK...agreed....and what percentage of the membership in the club would that represent? Remember, the cost for a 4 sheet club to join both organizations is around $5500.00

Personally I'd like to see OCA and CCA membership separate on the membership form so that only those who would use it would join as individuals.



That's radical stuff, Mrs Palin.

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The reason the CCA exists at all is to run national championships.

Up until about 10-15 years ago, the CCA was essentially told by clubs "don't worry, we got this. You run national championships, we can run our clubs," because business was great. Now business is bad and the clubs are going "where the F were you CCA?"

Separating the cost of CCA and provincial association dues from membership is a great idea - but making it an opt in option is a terrible idea. I'm all for letting members see where there dues are going, but giving them the option of not paying would kill national championships. Not the Brier and Scotties, but every other little championship the CCA runs like mixed, seniors, juniors, etc. that are at best, revenue neutral.

If those are your numbers for CCA and provincial association dues in ON, wow, do we have it good in MB. My 5-sheeter pays nowhere near that.

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Old Post 03-16-12 11:42AM
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The boomers aren't the new mass market - the boomers are the ORIGINAL mass market.

I do know the average curler pays that - it's actually less at my club in WPG. It's absolutely ridiculous.

I've found that the more you do something, the more familiar it is, the less you value it. Cheap curling, for boomers, is more than an expectation - it's their right! I know many who would quit curling before paying more.

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Old Post 03-16-12 11:56AM
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and thats why Canada dominates in Mens and not Womens.

...wait, thats not what we're talking about anymore?

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Old Post 03-16-12 12:59PM
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Guest
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
and thats why Canada dominates in Mens and not Womens.

...wait, thats not what we're talking about anymore?


Bud are you new to the internet forums, you need a moderator to stay on topic.

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Guest
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
The reason the CCA exists at all is to run national championships.

Up until about 10-15 years ago, the CCA was essentially told by clubs "don't worry, we got this. You run national championships, we can run our clubs," because business was great. Now business is bad and the clubs are going "where the F were you CCA?"


Where did you get this information from? It is my understanding the CCA instigated the change.

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curlingmad
Hitting Paint

Registered: Mar 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 188

quote:
Originally posted by Guest

Where did you get this information from? It is my understanding the CCA instigated the change.



Why is Mr. Harper getting in on this thread???

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Old Post 03-16-12 02:02PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlingmad
Why is Mr. Harper getting in on this thread???

As Prime Minister I have nothing better to do.

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Old Post 03-16-12 02:25PM
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duct_tape
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1438

quote:
Originally posted by lolar3288


I'm a little confused here...first you start that the government does fund CCA....etc....but not make employees....well indirectly it's the same thing is it not?.....Give me a cheque a week or one big one at the end of the year?

The fact is Sports Canada funds amateur (I love that term) Sport to the tune of over 100 million dollars a year. I would agree that it funds the wrong things. If it's going to fund amateur sport shouldn't the first step be to fund the players, then the organizations which should have to justify the funding?





Ok, I will rephrase my post...

NHL Player = Contracted Employee of a Professional Hockey Club

Championship Curler = Amateur athlete who is eligible to receive government funding for winning certain events.

Curlers are not pro athletes, and the government should not be funding them as such. They should provide some assistance, but certainly not to the extent of having them live off the government for the next few years.

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Old Post 03-16-12 03:15PM
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lolar3288
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Burlington
Posts: 577

quote:
Originally posted by duct_tape




Ok, I will rephrase my post...

NHL Player = Contracted Employee of a Professional Hockey Club

Championship Curler = Amateur athlete who is eligible to receive government funding for winning certain events.

Curlers are not pro athletes, and the government should not be funding them as such. They should provide some assistance, but certainly not to the extent of having them live off the government for the next few years.



Well it's a good, maybe even honourable theory. But once the olympics are involve the amateur theory goes out the window. Note that all the Scotish teams list occupation as "curler" Same for some of the other countries.

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lolar3288
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Burlington
Posts: 577

quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
and thats why Canada dominates in Mens and not Womens.

...wait, thats not what we're talking about anymore?



Sorry...I had a hand in that but performance = training and prep and that = money so if the ladies and men had more money behind them, like China, Japan, Scotland and others maybe things would change. I suspect there is more money in the men's circuits as well as sponsor money...

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Old Post 03-16-12 08:08PM
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cdninusa
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 70

quote:
I suspect there is more money in the men's circuits as well as sponsor money... [/B]


Also, the men's Slams are limited to a smaller field of 18 elite teams (and qualify 8). Howard, Martin, Koe, McEwen, etc. play each other 5-6 times a year and elevate each other's games through top competition. It is difficult for teams in 20th - 25th position to break that top tier.
Whereas womwn's Slams are open to 32 teams and typically a triple knock-out to qualify 8. Therefore the field is "watered down" and open to more teams to gain valuable experience.
Just my opinion,
Bill

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lolar3288
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Burlington
Posts: 577

quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
The reason the CCA exists at all is to run national championships.

Up until about 10-15 years ago, the CCA was essentially told by clubs "don't worry, we got this. You run national championships, we can run our clubs," because business was great. Now business is bad and the clubs are going "where the F were you CCA?"

Separating the cost of CCA and provincial association dues from membership is a great idea - but making it an opt in option is a terrible idea. I'm all for letting members see where there dues are going, but giving them the option of not paying would kill national championships. Not the Brier and Scotties, but every other little championship the CCA runs like mixed, seniors, juniors, etc. that are at best, revenue neutral.

If those are your numbers for CCA and provincial association dues in ON, wow, do we have it good in MB. My 5-sheeter pays nowhere near that.



Problem is Sport Canada funding is based on a different theory.

They fund the organization, in this case CCA with the idea that CCA distributes the funds to curling in general where it is most needed right down to the club level. If you go to Sports Canada asking about grants at the club level they will tell you...we fund your organization not individual clubs...go talk to them.

I should say I have less of an issue with CCA than the OCA/OCC. CCA is trying to do things for clubs with the help grant last year and the curling adds which are at least getting reasonable as opposed to a poster with "hurry hard" on them that no one outside of curling even understood. And at $50 a sheet it's not unreasonable but OCA/OCC are just a waste of money and of no use to clubs at all.

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Old Post 03-17-12 09:48AM
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Well, Since Sandra Schmirler, we haven't been feared. Colleen did it to some teams, but in general, Our ladies have not struck fear into any teams.
Just look at our Olympic track record 2 Women's golds. One as a demonstration sport in Calgary 88. the other 10 years later in Nagano.
We should rule this game.
I think we have to have our team for Sochi decided earlier, to give them time to be TEAM CANADA. Do all the media, and stuff. Get some exposure. Heck they didn't even get a CTV commercial in Vancouver, while other athletes did.
And lets get a new management team in place for them. The track record of the people the CCA has put in place for our Team Canada speaks for itself. And even on the mens side, it isn't great.
Lets take back what is ours...The glorious game.
We did in Hockey, after Nagano. lets do the same in curling.
Yes K-mart, and gushue won. But it was Kmarts third time at the games, and nobody was beating them in Vancouver..no one.

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