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curlerbroad
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1417

quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
This is ridiculous. Just focus on your own game anyways. It doesn't help them anyways hanging on to it that long. Tell the old people to focus on their own game and make more shots rather then trying to make excuses.

you've just summed up most of the curlers in our women's league

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Old Post 04-03-12 10:16PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlerbroad

you've just summed up most of the curlers in our women's league



So from what I can see, what your saying is your complaining about something that is not giving this team an advantage and your league is full of complainers.

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Old Post 04-03-12 10:54PM
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67
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Mar 2012
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I am going to suggest that is the case in leagues all over the country. I have to assume this team is quasi competitive and they are in the league for practice, let them be they are not hurting anyone.

Having been one of those teams (over 20 years ago now) they already know they are not welcome and stuff like this is only compounding that. I can hear it all now, "these kids should not be allowed to play because; they don't pay the same money we do, have not been members as long as we have, this is our time etc...Life's to short for the kind of BS. Let them play let them have fun and maybe more will want to play to which is only going to serve your club better for the long term.

As much as some may be put out by the hog line thing, which is worse them pushing the hog line the other "more mature" teams using 20 year old shoes that mark up the ice, using brooms with heads that have not been replaced for a decade or bopping around all over the sheet talking about their grand kids or complaining about their husbands...let's have some perspective here.

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Old Post 04-04-12 05:35AM
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first I look at how the player in question is performing and then I decide to act. Why? because if the thrower is playing like dogpoop, why call them on the infraction and perhaps inspire them to play better?

Had this happen long ago in a cash spiel. The guy was sliding over the line by half a body length but making nothing and killing his team. My front end wanted to pull a rock but I told them not to. The ruler breaker was helping us rather than his team.

Otherwise, call the skip on it and if he ignores it, kick the next stone into the boards. Let the thrower know hes breaking the rule and you won't put up with it. Its not classless to do so. In fact its the other team that has no class since they are well aware of the rule and their responsibility to call it on themselves.

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Old Post 04-04-12 09:51AM
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curlerbroad
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1417

quote:
Originally posted by 67
I am going to suggest that is the case in leagues all over the country. I have to assume this team is quasi competitive and they are in the league for practice, let them be they are not hurting anyone.

Having been one of those teams (over 20 years ago now) they already know they are not welcome and stuff like this is only compounding that. I can hear it all now, "these kids should not be allowed to play because; they don't pay the same money we do, have not been members as long as we have, this is our time etc...Life's to short for the kind of BS. Let them play let them have fun and maybe more will want to play to which is only going to serve your club better for the long term.

As much as some may be put out by the hog line thing, which is worse them pushing the hog line the other "more mature" teams using 20 year old shoes that mark up the ice, using brooms with heads that have not been replaced for a decade or bopping around all over the sheet talking about their grand kids or complaining about their husbands...let's have some perspective here.



That is why I posted here to get some opinions on the subject. What you say 67 is spot on. The biggest complainer in our league has the oldest broomhead and ancient grippers on her shoes. I have told her to get a new broom head as well as a new gripper but to no avail. However, both sides can give a little. Another junior who is very talented has picked up on the oldtimer ways and is quite tactful when dealing with them and can no longer be accused of letting go over the hogline. We both laugh at it now.

After reading the various views on here - my personal opionion now is

1) Have a quiet word with the skip
2) play the game

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Old Post 04-04-12 10:35AM
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matty
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered

Otherwise, call the skip on it and if he ignores it, kick the next stone into the boards. Let the thrower know hes breaking the rule and you won't put up with it. Its not classless to do so. In fact its the other team that has no class since they are well aware of the rule and their responsibility to call it on themselves.



Kicking a rock off would be an even worse violation of the rules than sliding over the hogline. Focus on beating them on the ice, mention it to them again afterwards, and if they still want to push it, they'll get themselves a bad rep at the club. Two wrongs don't make a right, so no sense being a jerk about it yourself.

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Old Post 04-04-12 10:49AM
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ngm
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Registered: Feb 2011
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
Otherwise, call the skip on it and if he ignores it, kick the next stone into the boards. Let the thrower know hes breaking the rule and you won't put up with it. Its not classless to do so. In fact its the other team that has no class since they are well aware of the rule and their responsibility to call it on themselves.



Under no circumstances can you decide that the other team has committed an infraction, let alone unilaterally enforcing any penalty. In curling, an infraction during play is either admitted to by the offender, or noticed by a neutral official.

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Old Post 04-04-12 03:14PM
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fresca
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Registered: Oct 2008
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i used to pretend to slip and as i was going down i would swing my broom and wack the offending hog line violator in the knee breaking her knee cap.... this offensive move should only be used sparingly so you dont become known as a poor sport

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Old Post 04-04-12 03:40PM
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duct_tape
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1438

quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
first I look at how the player in question is performing and then I decide to act. Why? because if the thrower is playing like dogpoop, why call them on the infraction and perhaps inspire them to play better?

Had this happen long ago in a cash spiel. The guy was sliding over the line by half a body length but making nothing and killing his team. My front end wanted to pull a rock but I told them not to. The ruler breaker was helping us rather than his team.

Otherwise, call the skip on it and if he ignores it, kick the next stone into the boards. Let the thrower know hes breaking the rule and you won't put up with it. Its not classless to do so. In fact its the other team that has no class since they are well aware of the rule and their responsibility to call it on themselves.




Depending where you kick the rock off the ice, you could very well be helping the other team. In any case you're making yourself look like a complete tool.

If you kick it off in the middle of the sheet, it is treated as a burned rock by the opposition team. The thrower will have the opportunity to re-deliver the stone, and may have a better idea on line now.

If you kick it off after the far hog line, the other team will be able to place the rock wherever they like.

Kicking the rock off is illegal, even if the thrower it 8 feet over the hog line.

The way the rule is written in a non-officiated game, the offending team has to admit their own violation. If they don't think they slid over the hog line, they didn't. And that's really all there is to it.

You can mention it to the other skip or vice, but if they decide there's no problem, there really is nothing you can do... So focus on making your shots instead.

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Old Post 04-04-12 03:50PM
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Hooper
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 348

If it's just a club league (and simply having a good time is a part of it all), I would consider waiting until the game is over. Once a brown bottle is in hand, these kinds of discussions can be a lot easier.

Also, I know it's instinct to go to skips over things like this, but why not let one front-ender point it out to a front-ender on the other team (either the offending player or to one of the sweepers who should be calling the foul)? Sometimes it's easier to get messages like this across when you're being discreet about it. And if it's just between a couple of people, the 'offender' can work on it without feeling like everybody's staring at them.

My best analogy to the situation was a game we played in a spiel. The ice was good, but one side of the sheet had an outward fall that would affect a draw by about 2 feet. Our team plays on hockey ice, so we're used to irregularities. Our opponent was used to pristine club ice with full-time ice makers. They were young enough that they didn't pick up on the fall, so we made a point of forcing play over the fall for the whole game. (With or without hammer, we'd play two guards on the good side and draw on the bad side.)

Long story short, the game wasn't close, and they came off the ice in a very bad mood. After spending most of the post-game chatter talking them of the ledge, I managed to get their skip off to the side and explain what happened (I was vice, fwiw). Without the rest of her pissed-off team around her, she was amenable to the discussion and happy for the help. They did play better for the rest of the spiel and turned out to be a lot of fun.

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Old Post 04-09-12 08:22AM
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quote:
Originally posted by duct_tape



Depending where you kick the rock off the ice, you could very well be helping the other team. In any case you're making yourself look like a complete tool.

If you kick it off in the middle of the sheet, it is treated as a burned rock by the opposition team. The thrower will have the opportunity to re-deliver the stone, and may have a better idea on line now.

If you kick it off after the far hog line, the other team will be able to place the rock wherever they like.

Kicking the rock off is illegal, even if the thrower it 8 feet over the hog line.

The way the rule is written in a non-officiated game, the offending team has to admit their own violation. If they don't think they slid over the hog line, they didn't. And that's really all there is to it.

You can mention it to the other skip or vice, but if they decide there's no problem, there really is nothing you can do... So focus on making your shots instead.



I know that by kicking the rock into the boards you allow them to place the rock wherever they wish. However, there comes a time when you have to make a statement and the best place to do that is on the ice, during a game. Be it a club, playdown or spiel.

If you have made every effort to solve the problem diplomatically to no avail, then you aren't jerks if you take action. Because there are people-in any and every type of sport-who will just ignore you and continue to vilolate the rules because they have no respect for them.

Those are the ones that you have to confront. In that case, you and your team are hardly jerks when you act. In fact you are standing up for the rules and the integrity of the game. And we may have to agree to disagree on this point-but ignoring individuals of this ilk (presuming they know they are willfully violating the rules) never works.

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Old Post 04-09-12 03:15PM
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duct_tape
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1438

quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


I know that by kicking the rock into the boards you allow them to place the rock wherever they wish. However, there comes a time when you have to make a statement and the best place to do that is on the ice, during a game. Be it a club, playdown or spiel.

If you have made every effort to solve the problem diplomatically to no avail, then you aren't jerks if you take action. Because there are people-in any and every type of sport-who will just ignore you and continue to vilolate the rules because they have no respect for them.

Those are the ones that you have to confront. In that case, you and your team are hardly jerks when you act. In fact you are standing up for the rules and the integrity of the game. And we may have to agree to disagree on this point-but ignoring individuals of this ilk (presuming they know they are willfully violating the rules) never works.





Actually, there is no good time to ever intentionally kick a rock off the sheet. You're purposefully breaking the rules, and making yourself look like a complete ass in the process.

If you make every effort to diplomatically solve the problem and it doesn't work... you are absolutely still a jerk by unilaterally declaring a rule violation you have no right to do by the rules, then breaking a rule yourself. You would be showing a greater disregard for the rules than your opponent.

You don't stand up for the rules and spirit of the game by breaking rules and acting like a clown.

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Old Post 04-09-12 03:47PM
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Hooper
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 348

Generalizing beyond the O/P a bit: if I were to find myself scheduled to play a team that chronically cheats (e.g. not calling burned rocks, intentionally burning bad shots, etc.), I would have no problem forfeiting and hitting the pub for a social night with my team. I see no reason to spend two hours getting angry.

It doesn't sound like the team in question is anywhere near that level of douchecurlingness, but it's always an option to walk away if playing would do nothing more than raise blood pressure, especially if it's a team that refuses to be good sports.

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Old Post 04-09-12 06:07PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlerbroad
Good ideas everyone. Personally, I have found #2 works well. This is a young team that does it. Our club has allowed juniors to play with adults this year. Of course there is grumbling amongst the oldtimers about them.

However, best to just play the game.



Well in my opinion, a rule is a rule. As to age being a factor, the younger you learn to obey the rules the better. As a 67 year old I can slide from hog to hog if I want to but I always try to make sure I release before the rock touches the hog.

If we are talking an inch over now and then, well I'd probably speak to the third after the game but if it's a rock width everytime then I'd speak to the third or skip during the game (if I was third or have my third do it).

I know of one Burlington team of girls that two of the players constantly over shoot, sometimes by 2 feet!

The way to handle repeat offenders that fail to liston to warnings is to wait until a important shot, stop the game and speak to the third then. Then stand on the hog and make it clear you are watching. Mind games work both ways!

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Old Post 04-10-12 10:00AM
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Originally posted by Unregistered


Well in my opinion, a rule is a rule. As to age being a factor, the younger you learn to obey the rules the better. As a 67 year old I can slide from hog to hog if I want to but I always try to make sure I release before the rock touches the hog.

If we are talking an inch over now and then, well I'd probably speak to the third after the game but if it's a rock width everytime then I'd speak to the third or skip during the game (if I was third or have my third do it).

I know of one Burlington team of girls that two of the players constantly over shoot, sometimes by 2 feet!

The way to handle repeat offenders that fail to liston to warnings is to wait until a important shot, stop the game and speak to the third then. Then stand on the hog and make it clear you are watching. Mind games work both ways!

This is also against the rules (intimidation is not allowed), so you are being very hypocritical by breaking the rule. Also even if they did slide over the line you have no recourse unless they call the infraction on themselves.

I think the best way to handle the situation is to discuss your concerns with the other team, whether it is the shooter or the skip. Then forget about it, as in my history the longer they hold on the more likely they are to miss the shot.

On a side note, having coached juniors and been a hogline official it is very difficult to determine whether someone is over the hogline. We had 6 rocks pulled in a provincial event with officials, and the same team at nationals did not have one hog line violation using the Eye On The Hog. So why do we think one individual (with a bias) will be be better than two trained officials (no bias), which were not as good as the Eye on the Hog.

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Old Post 04-10-12 12:06PM
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My suggestion is to have your club hire an "enforcer", such as the individual in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzToNo7A-94

That should solve everything.

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Old Post 04-10-12 01:01PM
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quote:
Originally posted by duct_tape

If you make every effort to diplomatically solve the problem and it doesn't work... you are absolutely still a jerk by unilaterally declaring a rule violation you have no right to do by the rules, then breaking a rule yourself. You would be showing a greater disregard for the rules than your opponent.

You don't stand up for the rules and spirit of the game by breaking rules and acting like a clown.



The spirit of the game dictates that we call our own rule violations. Therefore, you are never a jerk or an ass when you stand up to a bully who wilfully disregards not just the rules but the spirit of the game.

I once witnessed a past world champ do this very thing in a cashspiel years ago, after the other team ignored the diplomatic approach. The hogline violatons ceased immediately and no one thought the person who kicked the stone was a jerk or an ass.

In fact, more than a few congratulated and bought the man in question drinks afterwards. And I overheard many state that they wish they had the courage to do the same to the team and rule violator.

I'm not saying that this is the first step anyone should take-I never have for that matter. But when the proper channels fail standing up for the integrity, rules and spirit of the game never makes one a jerk. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

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Old Post 04-10-12 01:56PM
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duct_tape
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1438

quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


The spirit of the game dictates that we call our own rule violations. Therefore, you are never a jerk or an ass when you stand up to a bully who wilfully disregards not just the rules but the spirit of the game.

I once witnessed a past world champ do this very thing in a cashspiel years ago, after the other team ignored the diplomatic approach. The hogline violatons ceased immediately and no one thought the person who kicked the stone was a jerk or an ass.

In fact, more than a few congratulated and bought the man in question drinks afterwards. And I overheard many state that they wish they had the courage to do the same to the team and rule violator.

I'm not saying that this is the first step anyone should take-I never have for that matter. But when the proper channels fail standing up for the integrity, rules and spirit of the game never makes one a jerk. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.






The spirit of the game demands we declare our own rule violations, absolutely no question or argument with you there.

However, as a great example I am reminded of a cranky old guy from the club I grew up in. If there was anyone under the age of 30 that slid remotely close to the hog line, he'd always be in an uproar and claim about how they're sliding (I kid you not) 4-6 feet over the line. Many times he'd even try calling hog line violations from the far end of the ice.

There's probably a few of those guys in every club in the country. I have no idea if he was doing it to try to intimidate younger players, or if he was just simply clueless, but the point is he was simply wrong in his observations.

In your example, I don't really care if a former world champion did it or not. The point was he was in violation of the rules, and also should have known better being a high profile curler.

If that's the precedent he wants to set, then there's absolutely nothing wrong later on in that end kicking his 8 rock off the ice, and arbitrarily claiming you thought one of his sweepers touched the stone.


In reality, You are well within your right to politely point out to the other team if you believe one or more of their players are sliding over the line. If they choose to disregard your statement, there isn't anything else you can do about it.

The other team may be showing poor sportsmanship or violating the rules. However, there also exists the possibility they genuinely believe you are wrong, and they could be correct in that assessment. If you then compound the problem by kicking a stone off that was actually let go before the line, then you are the only person creating a problem on the ice.

We've all played against guys that get close to and sometimes let go on or slightly over the line. Unless someone is doing it constantly, I won't even bother with it. If they are, I might mention it to their team. No matter what happens from that point on, my main focus is on outshooting them, rather than worrying about if a guy let it go two inches too far. It's only a distraction to yourself.

However, you don't stand up for the integrity, spirit and rules of the game by intimidating the opposition, or breaking rules yourself. The whole idea is counter-productive and will only cause more problems.

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Old Post 04-10-12 02:48PM
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